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Obi Wan's Paradox

Timothy
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Posted 10/25/09 - 03:41 PM: Subject: Obi Wan's Paradox	#1
Right Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Guess he was too busy to think stuff through thoroughly. What would Yoda say? Edited by Timothy on 10/25/09 - 07:30 PM
"Neither Aristotelian nor Russellian rules give the exact logic of any expression of ordinary language; for ordinary language has no exact logic." P.F. Strawson

Wosret
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Posted 10/25/09 - 04:24 PM:	#2
Timothy wrote: What would Yoda say? Something grammatically distorted.
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

aletheist
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Posted 10/25/09 - 05:39 PM:	#3
Timothy wrote: What would Yoda say? "Self-refuting your statement is." Actually, Yoda would probably agree with him. My interpretation of the whole saga is that the Jedi had gotten off-track by not dealing in absolutes, and (especially) by insisting on detachment from other people. Even in Episode 5, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were counseling Luke to sacrifice his friends for the sake of "the cause". He ignored their advice, saved his friends, and ultimately "saved" his father--all because he refused to detach himself from them. The prophecy that the "Chosen One" would "bring balance to the Force" was not fulfilled until love and meaningful relationships had been incorporated into the Jedi ethic.
"Be attentive, Be intelligent, Be reasonable, Be responsible." - Bernard Lonergan (1904-1984)

Apathy Kills
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Posted 10/25/09 - 07:27 PM:	#4
aletheist wrote: "Self-refuting your statement is." Actually, Yoda would probably agree with him. My interpretation of the whole saga is that the Jedi had gotten off-track by not dealing in absolutes, and (especially) by insisting on detachment from other people. Even in Episode 5, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were counseling Luke to sacrifice his friends for the sake of "the cause". He ignored their advice, saved his friends, and ultimately "saved" his father--all because he refused to detach himself from them. The prophecy that the "Chosen One" would "bring balance to the Force" was not fulfilled until love and meaningful relationships had been incorporated into the Jedi ethic. This is good. I think it should be added that Anakin's turn to the darkside was largely due to his excessive love and obsessive fear of loss for Padme. The Jedi, understandably, wished its members to guard themselves from such excesses. But their solution (prohibition from engaging in relationships, chastity) was in itself an excess which can have just as much an adverse effect. Perhaps Luke embodies the Aristotelian golden mean between the two extremes.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire..." Nietzsche

psychotick
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Posted 10/26/09 - 01:24 AM:	#5
Hi, Beam me up Scotty, wish you would! Cheers.

swstephe
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Posted 10/26/09 - 02:19 AM:	#6
How to count the multitude of contradictions? Obi Wan says his allegiance is to the Republic and democracy, even though he is actively defying the democratically elected leader out of a religious disagreement. I notice that most Jedi's seem mindlessly adherent to training nearly like brainwashing, (trust your feelings, not your perceptions), making their system practically a theocracy without a deity. They divide up the world into "light and dark", then violate their own rules, (reacting with violence and seeking revenge or rewarding unprincipled heroics). The Sith seem to be rational objectivists, (betraying each other whenever they are given the chance). They seem to speak more rationally when they denounce the Jedi as an archaic anachronism.
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.

Timothy
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Posted 10/26/09 - 08:10 AM:	#7
aletheist wrote: My interpretation of the whole saga is that the Jedi had gotten off-track by not dealing in absolutes, and (especially) by insisting on detachment from other people. Even in Episode 5, both Yoda and Obi-Wan were counseling Luke to sacrifice his friends for the sake of "the cause". He ignored their advice, saved his friends, and ultimately "saved" his father--all because he refused to detach himself from them. He got detached from his right hand though... because Yoda and Obi knew something had to get detached from Luke... I guess he was lucky it was only a hand! swstephe wrote: Obi Wan says his allegiance is to the Republic and democracy, even though he is actively defying the democratically elected leader out of a religious disagreement. In his defense, one could argue that the democratic election in which Palpatine got himself elected as galactic emperor was induced under false circumstances. Most aliens and stuff voted for him mainly because the republic was being threatened by the separatists; what they didn't know was that Palpatine himself orchestrated the whole "war" in order to manipulate his way into becoming an emperor. When the Jedi noticed this deception, and uncovered Palpatine as a Sith lord, they naturally tried to eliminate him. Their failure was then manipulated again by Palpatine, accusing the Jedi of trying to take over by means of a coup, and we all know what happened next... I'm feeling rather geeky, for a change
"Neither Aristotelian nor Russellian rules give the exact logic of any expression of ordinary language; for ordinary language has no exact logic." P.F. Strawson

wuliheron
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Posted 10/26/09 - 08:57 AM:	#8
Timothy wrote: Right Only a Sith deals in absolutes. Guess he was too busy to think stuff through thoroughly. What would Yoda say? For all I know he meant it quite literally and that the definition of a Sith is someone who deals in absolutes. Certainly Palpatine used absolute concepts to further his own agenda.

slap
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Posted 10/26/09 - 10:28 AM:	#9
My day has now been made!
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Timothy
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Posted 10/26/09 - 07:06 PM:	#10
wuliheron wrote: For all I know he meant it quite literally and that the definition of a Sith is someone who deals in absolutes. Certainly Palpatine used absolute concepts to further his own agenda. However note a difference with a simple definition. In such case, we would say something like: "A Sith is one such that such and such" Now, Obi Wan's remark goes beyond this, for he says: "Only a Sith such and such yada yada" Let's call this an absolutist claim. Now the paradox is generated if we fillo in the yada yada stuff: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" ...which is itself an absolute-like statement. The paradoxical thingy is that it's being uttered by a Jedi. slap wrote: My day has now been made! I'm also quite easily amused
"Neither Aristotelian nor Russellian rules give the exact logic of any expression of ordinary language; for ordinary language has no exact logic." P.F. Strawson

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