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Ontological status of lost things
Suppose a sheet of music for a piano sonata was lost and there were no other copies or recordings left. Would the piano sonata continue to exist even if the sheet music was lost? Suppose a copy of the sheet music was discovered fifty years later. If the

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Ontological status of lost things

jsidelko
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Posted 10/22/09 - 10:43 AM: Subject: Ontological status of lost things	#1
Suppose a sheet of music for a piano sonata was lost and there were no other copies or recordings left. Would the piano sonata continue to exist even if the sheet music was lost? Suppose a copy of the sheet music was discovered fifty years later. If the sheet music was rediscovered, would the piano sonata have ever been non-existent during the time the sheet music was missing.
thanatos

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Posted 10/22/09 - 11:55 AM:	#2
jsidelko wrote: Suppose a sheet of music for a piano sonata was lost and there were no other copies or recordings left. Would the piano sonata continue to exist even if the sheet music was lost? The "piano sonata" in question never 'existed' because it's only an idea that subsists as a possibility is a system of musical notation & scales (pace Plato et al). Like a 'brilliant endgame strategy' in Chess or 'poem' in English: possibilities belonging to a delimited local-space (i.e. relational domain). As for the written score (i.e. sheet), it is only a textual instantiation (i.e. record, or recording) of that idea. Suppose a copy of the sheet music was discovered fifty years later. If the sheet music was rediscovered, would the piano sonata have ever been non-existent during the time the sheet music was missing. No. They are as causally independent of one another as your facial expression is from a photograph of it.
The question isn't "Which explanations do I believe?" but rather "Which explanations do I least disbelieve?" Absence of evidence THAT MUST BE THERE (i.e. implied by any claim, concept, or (its) predicates, that affects changes in/to the world) entails evidence of absence. [What cannot be done?[What cannot be hoped?[What cannot be known?]]]

brainpharte
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Posted 10/22/09 - 01:46 PM:	#3
Sheet music for a piano sonata is analogous to a recipe for, say, a piña colada. Neither the sonata nor the colada actually exist until somebody manipulates the environment according to the musical notation or to the recipe.
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

Tobias
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Posted 10/22/09 - 02:09 PM:	#4
I'd take the same line as 180, with one twist. The piano sonata exists when it is played. It is not only a possibility, but it is an actualised possibility. If it were different than either all possible piano sonatae exist, which I think is not acceptable, or the piano sonata does not exist even when it is played and that is I think also difficult to accept. Ontologically, an actualised thing exists and a potential thing does not. However the existence of the piano sonata is contingent upon it being played, or at least when it is known how to play it, or when a listener remebers it. An ideal thing can only exist when in fact someone has that idea.
"The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you" "The Power of Kant compels you"

xzJoel
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Posted 10/22/09 - 02:32 PM:	#5
Why does the Sonata exist at all? Have we suddenly become fans of non-material existence? I'm happy to think of a process as existing, but it seems like most of the time people are looking for particles as the unit of existence and see motion, sound, etc. as the place of existence across time. Edited by xzJoel on 10/22/09 - 03:36 PM
Make a joyous noise onto the lord... Not a good one, just a joyous one.

jsidelko
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Posted 10/22/09 - 03:17 PM:	#6
Let's say the sonata was played once on television or radio before it was lost. Would it continue to exist while the tv/radio waves are traveling through space to unreceivable distances?
thanatos

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Posted 10/22/09 - 03:28 PM:	#7
180 Proof wrote: The "piano sonata" in question never 'existed' because it's only an idea that subsists as a possibility is a system of musical notation & scales (pace Plato et al). Did the idea of the sonata subsist as a possibility even before it was written? [This is not a question for 180, but for anyone interested. Based on 180's observation above.]
I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then 'true' mystery does exist.

brainpharte
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Posted 10/22/09 - 04:35 PM:	#8
Big surprise--we use the phrase "piano sonata" somewhat ambiguously or even equivocally. We can disambiguate by specifying our referent. And then we can answer the question "Does it exist?, or "In what sense does it exist?" Sometimes "piano sonata" refers to an actualized auditory experience as we listen to someone performing or to a recording. "I just listened to a Mozart piano sonata." Other times it refers to the musical notation: "She bought the sheet music for a Beethoven piano sonata." Other times it refers to a recorded performance: "I have three Schubert piano sonata CD's." Other times it refers to imagined in the head music: "Composers can hear the sonata in their heads as they compose." Or a rehearsal of memory: "He claims he can run the whole sonata in his head because he's heard it so many times." Or, "Some pianists can hear what the sonata sounds like just by reading the music." Or it even can refer to someone's memory of how to perform it: "He says he can play several sonatas by heart."
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

Dragohunter
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Posted 10/22/09 - 04:39 PM:	#9
jsidelko wrote: Let's say the sonata was played once on television or radio before it was lost. Would it continue to exist while the tv/radio waves are traveling through space to unreceivable distances? Tv/radio waves won't really mean anything unless perceived by a observer. A sound that isn't heard isn't a "sound" from a qualitative perspective. When I have a conscious state of how sonata sounds like, no sound waves are being produced yet the sonata exists. To avoid confusions, music or any of the arts are the way minds perceive the beauty of physical things. If Beethoven was the only person in the world, music would be all in his head. No sounds can be reproduced if he didn't have any instruments but the music pieces would still exist. If no person existed and yet the information of the sonatas were preserved in tv/radio waves, it would be safe to assume music doesn't exist.
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

slap
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Posted 10/24/09 - 10:50 AM:	#10
Dragon hunter, that seems too verificationist? We aren't worried about someone extracting meaning from the radio waves, but whether they exist or not? If the readio waves exist, and there was someone to listen to them then meaning could be extracted. However it seems that if the radio waves exist, without a listener, and the radio waves contain the sonata(the musical form), then the sonata still exists? The sonata is after a definite description of a specific pattern of sounds etc, we don't need to worry about whether we're calling it music or not.
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