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Is Atheism a form of Faith?
I've wondered when reading posts if for some atheists their stance is a faith

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Is Atheism a form of Faith?

Wosret
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Posted 10/22/09 - 10:46 AM:	#221
Apathy Kills wrote: But you hardly clarified your answer.... ah whatever. It can be so hard to ask a question around here. I can't. My answer was that I would require search parameters, and the lack of search parameters was one of my justifications for the rejection of theism that I outlined in an earlier post. I cannot tell you what they would be, or else I would know already, and wouldn't require them to be provided to me. I can only tell you the type of thing it would take to convince me. Incoherent maybe, but absurd!? Who me? I certainly don't mind being called absurd -- I am absurd. Incoherent though? I happen to hold my ability to get my meaning across in pretty high regard. And if at first I don't succeed, I give up and call my antagonist stupid. Edited by Wosret on 10/22/09 - 10:58 AM
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

Apathy Kills
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Posted 10/22/09 - 10:52 AM:	#222
Wosret wrote: Who me? No, just me. I wouldn't want to implicate anyone but myself for the silliness of any of the recent posts. I would require search parameters, and the lack of search parameters was one of my justifications for the rejection of theism that I outlined in an earlier post. I cannot tell you what they would be, or else I would know already, and wouldn't require them to be provided to me. I can only tell you the type of thing it would take to convince me. Ok, I can understand that. I still find the answer a little suspicious - but that's just me.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire..." Nietzsche

180 Proof
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Posted 10/22/09 - 10:57 AM:	#223
ben tam64 wrote: Faith is the trust we put into what we believe. That's all well & good until one observes the actual ways most of 'the faithful' use 'faith' in discourse as well as in practice, namely 'for trusting "beliefs" which they have no sound reasons to accept as true'.
The question isn't "Which explanations do I believe?" but rather "Which explanations do I least disbelieve?" Absence of evidence THAT MUST BE THERE (i.e. implied by any claim, concept, or (its) predicates, that affects changes in/to the world) entails evidence of absence. [What cannot be done?[What cannot be hoped?[What cannot be known?]]]

Wosret
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Posted 10/22/09 - 11:02 AM:	#224
Apathy Kills wrote: Ok, I can understand that. I still find the answer a little suspicious - but that's just me. Why do you find the answer suspicious?
"If you've got any last words, say 'em now." - Nadie. "I am Horo the Wise." - Horo the Wise.

rigelrover
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Posted 10/22/09 - 11:16 AM:	#225
180 Proof wrote: Why so anthropomorphic? I wasn't implying anything. Just asking the question.
I am more interested in questions than answers; dialog than dictation. If we can reasonably believe that there is not just a breach, but a fundamentally unclosable gap between the individual mind and the ultimate nature of the reality; the primordial thing in itself, then 'true' mystery does exist.

Kwalish Kid
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Posted 10/22/09 - 11:36 AM:	#226
rigelrover wrote: Here are a few straw men (Kwalish)that are commonly sighted by atheists as reasons (just thought that they should be acknowledged here as well). 1) Evolution (in particular) => No God, or Naturalism (in general) => No God 2) Evil => No God 3) Insufficient general knowledge of God => No God What has become normalized, to us, as conditions for knowing are, at the least, anthropocentric if not individual centered; and we cannot know if this condition is sufficient for general knowing. So 4) Cannot know => No God Yes, these are often straw men attributed to atheists.
"Scientific truth is always paradox, if judged by everyday experience, which catches only the delusive nature of things." - KM, V, P and P Can you pass Religion 101?

Apathy Kills
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Posted 10/22/09 - 12:27 PM:	#227
Wosret wrote: Why do you find the answer suspicious? I'll try to explain - It seems as if you're saying, concerning the thought experiment, 'Well, I can't really tell you what would convince me until it happens.' So, the question itself of there existing evidence that could legitimatize a spiritual encounter with a possible god is left open - yet I don't quite see much of a separation from the thought experiment itself and the [possible] reality of it. One ought to be able to contemplate, to think abstractly, of what sort of things would be convincing to oneself or not: What action, what substance of information could fit into "X" that satisfices? Of course, I have tried this thought experiment and racked my mind with all the circumstances that I could think of that could fill action "X" and pretty much every time I come away with some measure of doubt. It seemed like whatever I had this hypothetical god being do to prove its existence to me, I was unsatisfied with the evidence. I could dismiss it as a dream or not real, even when the "X" was tailored to prevent such a dismissal. Perhaps my stubbornness is getting in the way? I guess, in part, why I find your answer suspicious is that it confirms my own frustrations. Edited by Apathy Kills on 10/22/09 - 12:56 PM. Reason: grammatical
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire..." Nietzsche

trilla
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0 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 10/22/09 - 01:17 PM:	#228
Atheism is a faith to those who don't know whether God exists or not. If one says "I don't believe in God," what they're really saying is "I believe that God doesnt exist." Because anything that is not proved presupposes belief or faith.

Cheshire
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Posted 10/22/09 - 01:44 PM:	#229
trilla wrote: Atheism is a faith to those who don't know whether God exists or not. If one says "I don't believe in God," what they're really saying is "I believe that God doesnt exist." Because anything that is not proved presupposes belief or faith. You may be oversimplifying an atheist position in order to produce a claim that appears "out of the blue"; in the absence of a supporting argument or explanation any claim could appear as a statement based only on faith. Really, I can isolate any conclusion from an argument and say it is a statement of faith. It is a form of misrepresentation regardless of one' s intentions.
Or not.

dclements
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Posted 10/22/09 - 01:45 PM:	#230
Sorry that I'm very late in replying....was caught up in work and other stuff which made it not possible to reply till now. Cheshire wrote: Asking what is your purpose or what is the meaning to life; to me is a sales tactic. Since no one has a great answer for what is the purpose of my life it allows the theist to interject with God. The purpose or meaning of your life is defined by what you do while alive. If you spend your days eating candy under a bridge, then that is the purpose of your life. So, purpose of ones life is not something to be sought, otherwise your purpose was the search for a purpose. An irony I do not wish upon anyone. easyjacksn wrote: I have put forth an explanation for purpose. It is the feelings that motivate us. You have yet to put forth an explanation of objective purpose. If you want to continue dodging this, then I will assume you admit your position to be untenable and end the conversation. mric wrote: Here is how I understand the argument from purpose: - I feel there is a purpose to people's lives, including my own - I believe that purpose to be genuinely important - I don't believe that what people think is genuinely important - Therefore purpose can not be explained fully just by what people think - However, it is fairly obvious that purpose is an intentional characteristic, and so involves thinking - Therefore there must be some other rational being whose beliefs endow us with genuinely important purpose Is that an unfair parody? Since enough people are asking for me to define a purpose, I guess it is only fair that come up with an explanation. First off though I want to make it clear that I'm not arguing against what people choose as their own purpose, I'm arguing against when people find their own purpose and then choose to tell others that it should also be their own. If 180 Proof doesn't want to believe in God, but Mariner does then all I have to say is to each whatever works for them. However no matter what you believe if you go around telling people what you believe in and why it is right, it is no different then people that have copies of the watch tower and trying to push them on to others. If you are on the forum it is a given that you are pushing your beliefs on to others, even if you are trying to claim that you are not. If you didn't care about others knowing what you believe then you wouldn't bother posting. Second I would like to say I don’t not believe there is such a thing as a perfect belief or set of beliefs. Nor are there wrong beliefs. All beliefs have their pros and cons and believing in only one way as the ‘right’ way leads to dogmatic way of looking at the world. That said I would like to explain one of the reason why it is incorrect to claim that we should not believe in God. Claiming what one should or should not do is a moral belief. And moral beliefs are based on opinions not on facts. That said we should realize that whether one wants to believes or does not want to believe in God is an opinion based on one's own experiences. Nobody has a rational explanation why anyone other that themselves needs to believe as they do since they can not account for all experience and knowledge other than their own. Simply put, one can not come up with an 'ought' from an 'is' or turn an opinion into a fact. As for what purpose is the best definition of purpose, if it does exists, is based on the doctrine of prattyasamutpda or dependent arising. I don't have the time to properly explain it, but it basically states that nothing exists as we see it but instead it's existence is dependent on other things and events. Our own lives only have meaning in the context of everything in which allows us to be and the things that come to pass after we are no longer here. Our desires and the here and now are pretty much illusions if only taken by themselves. If there is any reason or use for religous beliefs is that they can help people overcome their views that the world revolves around them and instead see the big picture. I hope this clears things up some what.
No, you don't get it, thats why I'm telling you. You think you get it, which isn't the same as actually getting it. Get it?-Kakashi Hatake Virtue itself turns vice, being misapplied, And vice sometimes by action dignified-Friar Lawrence The state of mind that questions is much more important than the question itself.Any question may be asked by a slavish mind, and the answer it receives will still be be within the limitations of its own slavery...Freedom of desire for an answer is essential for the understanding of a problem-Krishnamurti

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