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Religion and Fatalism

King Azaz
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Posted 09/18/09 - 01:33 PM: Subject: Religion and Fatalism	#1
Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. (John 13:38) Fatalism is the belief that all events are predetermined by a force which we have no control over, in this case God. If the future is mapped out by prophesy, is there free will? Did Peter have the ability to do anything but deny Christ? Can we be judged for our transgressions? I'd be very interested in hearing your opinions. Edited by King Azaz on 09/19/09 - 04:29 AM

jsidelko
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Posted 09/19/09 - 09:28 AM:	#2
Jesus, as God, would have fallen short of divine perfection if he had failed to predict Peter's actions. If however, he knew Peter's future behavior than Peter wouldn't have had any choice but to act in accordance with the prediction. Either God is all knowing and people's actions are predetermined or God is nearsighted and people can deviate from his expectations or Jesus isn't God.
thanatos

keda
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Posted 09/19/09 - 10:29 AM:	#3
Fatalism is the belief that all events are predetermined by a force which we have no control over, in this case God. Alternatively predetermined by a force we do have control over.
All about making money Free Europe Now How to fix your country In thought, men distance themselves from nature in order thus imaginatively to present it to themselves--but only in order to determine how it is to be dominated - Adorno and Horkheimer

King Azaz
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Posted 09/19/09 - 11:57 AM:	#4
-I agree with you jsidelko. Christianity presents Jesus as omnipotent and omniscient. If his prophesies are true, then Peter's fate was unavoidable. -keda, I would be interested in hearing the continuation of that thought.

Incision
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Posted 09/19/09 - 10:51 PM:	#5
If fatalism is view that a certain future is necessary, then God's foreknowledge doesn't imply fatalism. If Jesus knows that Peter will deny him, then Peter will deny him; this doesn't amount to saying that Peter will necessarily deny him. One might be tempted to reason like this: necessarily, what God knows is true, so, if God knows it, then it's necessarily true. But that would be a mistake. There's a difference between "necessarily, if you know it then it's true," and "if you know it, then it's necessarily true." The first implies that if I know Obama won the election, then he really won the election, which is true; the second implies that if I know he won the election, then McCain could never have won, which is false. These two propositions can be confused because they can both be expressed by the ambiguous sentence "if you know it then necessarily it's true." In sum I'd say that God could know what will actually happen even if it won't necessarily happen.

keda
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Posted 09/20/09 - 12:28 AM:	#6
King Azaz wrote: -keda, I would be interested in hearing the continuation of that thought. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RobotWar Consider this as an analogy. You watch a game of Robotwar and note that the behaviour of the robots is predetermined, and if you would start over with the same initial conditions, the same thing would happen. However nonetheless, the robots have been programmed to act in a certain way, and if you would have programmed it differently, it would have behaved differently. So despite that their actions are predetermined, they have been predetermined by our choices of how they will act in various situations.
All about making money Free Europe Now How to fix your country In thought, men distance themselves from nature in order thus imaginatively to present it to themselves--but only in order to determine how it is to be dominated - Adorno and Horkheimer

jorndoe
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Posted 09/20/09 - 04:49 AM:	#7
Hey Incision, completely agreed, foreknowledge does not imply causal determinism, at least not without further assumptions. There is another (potential) problem involved though, as far as free will is concerned. Foreknowledge by itself requires some kind of perspective that is not temporal in the usual sense (otherwise it seems to reduce to causal determinism or similar). However, such foreknowledge would have existed in the past, exists in our now, and will exist in the future (as far as there is one). Thus, the mere existence of such foreknowledge has direct logical (though not necessarily causal) implications on us and our reality (which is temporal), right down to the now. Some more details on this stuff over here (with some additions here). Any necessary intersection (in lack of a better term) between such foreknowledge and our reality leads to logical necessities. There are some odd concepts involved here though; for example, does it make sense for something a-temporal to "know" anything? People that argue against the problem of evil often propose that God gives up something to allow for free will, which in turn also allows for evil; one may ask how much the proposed God has to give up, for all the various ideas to hold in a court of philosophy..?
People are to themselves what they think; people are to others what they do. ∞ ∑ 1/i² = π²/6 i=1

Uncertainty Principl
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Posted 09/20/09 - 04:51 AM: Subject: Religion and Fatalism	#8
The Bible seems to consist of a significant number of contradictory or unsubstantiated claims about reality. For example, while the message of the four gospels seems to be to call us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, Romans 8:30 says: "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." The term predestinate is used numerous times throughout the New Testament. Interestingly, in Mark chapter 4, Jesus also stated that the hearts of the pharisees were hardened so that they would not believe and would not repent of sin. Revelation also states that there are names which were not included in the Book of Life from the beginning of time. I once adhered to the fundamentals of christianity. However, a variety of circumstances have caused me to ask why God, as I knew him then, would allow such things to happen to people. The truth was I had a lot to learn regarding my philosophy of God and ultimate reality. Actually, I am still learning. After reading selections from some of the major philosophers, none proved more fascinating and life changing than Hegel's Science of Logic. When most people refer to God they tend to imagine a being whose nature is absent from evil. However, good and evil merely exist as illusional concepts. Once you begin to understand how the finite is generated from the infinite and how opposites pass into themselves, you begin to realize that God merely exists to ensure that all of nature is on a predetermined path. Several months ago, I challenged several people to tell me why point A and Point B were on opposite sides of a circle if they were place at 0 degrees and 180 degrees. Consider what is being implied by the definitions here. A merely means that it is not B. Likewise, B means that it is not A. However, you would go in an endless circle searching for a point where the opposing states of being do not pass into their opposite to create an appearance of contradiction. Thus, the challenge now becomes to tell me how contradictory states of being can exist without incorporating Hegelian logic. You may already see the implications of this system of logic to our belief in God. God exists as the synthesis of good and evil. In other words, it cannot be said that God innately loves or hates any of us. God exists as the synthesis of all contradictory states of being in nature. Therefore, of course predestination exists in nature and free will is perhaps the biggest illusion that has permeated the mind of man.

jorndoe
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Posted 09/20/09 - 06:02 AM:	#9
Uncertainty Principl (#8) wrote: and free will is perhaps the biggest illusion that has permeated the mind of man I guess that leaves out personal responsibility/accountability in any ordinary sense.
People are to themselves what they think; people are to others what they do. ∞ ∑ 1/i² = π²/6 i=1

kNoctis
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Posted 09/25/09 - 03:55 PM:	#10
If fatalism is a problem for free will, then it is a problem for free will regardless of whether or not god exists and is omniscient. God's providence complicates the issue, i.e. fatalism may not be an issue for free will, but providence may be.

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