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Wittgenstein on the moon
"...is there then no objective truth?"

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Wittgenstein on the moon

ragus
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Posted 08/15/09 - 03:53 AM:	#51
brainpharte wrote I suspect that we can meaningfully and usefully conceive of at least two kinds or modes of certainty. One being a conscious explicitly declared certainty about the truth or falsity of a particular claim, and the other being a tacit certainty that's an unconscious judgment we've made on automatic pilot drawing on long-established empirical reliabilities and logical inferences. When I ate the blackberries last week from the hedgerow I betted my life that they weren't deadly nightshade. Since I'm still here either my judgement was certain or I ate the nightshade which tasted like blackberry and which hasn't called the grim reaper almost immediately as it has done (so we're told) with most other folks.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

brainpharte
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Posted 08/15/09 - 06:58 AM:	#52
ragus wrote: brainpharte wrote When I ate the blackberries last week from the hedgerow I betted my life that they weren't deadly nightshade. Since I'm still here either my judgement was certain or I ate the nightshade which tasted like blackberry and which hasn't called the grim reaper almost immediately as it has done (so we're told) with most other folks. Whatever does "Since I'm still here ... my judgement was certain" mean? That you were certain in the first place, or that you are certain now, or both? What can you show that your certainty is based on other than that the consequence is that you lived without suffering or dying, which is consistent with your initial judgment that the berries were edible? How does any of this contest my claim that your certainty is a function meeting of the epistemic criteria you subject it to--your empirical confirmation and rational analysis?
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

ragus
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Posted 08/15/09 - 07:26 AM:	#53
brainpharte wrote That you were certain in the first place, or that you are certain now, or both? I acted then with certainty. That's me speaking now about my earlier self. How does any of this contest my claim that your certainty is a function meeting of the epistemic criteria you subject it to--your empirical confirmation and rational analysis? It wasn't meant to contest it. I agree with it. I was supplying an example where certainty was implied and then later confirmed.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

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Posted 08/15/09 - 07:39 AM:	#54
ragus wrote: It wasn't meant to contest it. I agree with it. I was supplying an example where certainty was implied and then later confirmed. Ah. I thought perhaps but wasn't sure.
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

ade90212
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Posted 08/15/09 - 11:45 AM:	#55
brainpharte wrote: Don't lmow about cats (nor clams, nor turnips, nor rocks) being certain or not. And why not? We are discussing certainty. I suggest that a cat's actions may (under certain circumstances) meaningfully be said to express certainty. Why should I accept your definition of certainty if it fails to account for sensible uses of the term? brainpharte wrote: If someone's claim of certainty is not based on something then it must be arbitrary, no?. Again, and why not? Whether we drive on the left or thr right of the road is arbitray, but it matters all the same.
"Philosophers often behave like little children who scribble some marks on a piece of paper at random and then ask the grown-up "What's that?" - It happened like this: the grown-up had drawn pictures for the child several times and said: "this is a man", "this is a house", etc. And then the child makes some marks too and asks: what's this then?" - Ludwig Wittgenstein, Culture and Value

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Posted 08/15/09 - 12:23 PM:	#56
ade90212 wrote: And why not? We are discussing certainty. I suggest that a cat's actions may (under certain circumstances) meaningfully be said to express certainty. Why should I accept your definition of certainty if it fails to account for sensible uses of the term? IF the cat appeared to us to be uncertain of, say, its next step, what would you think the cat's uncertainty was based on other than the empirical evidence of the surface immediately before it and the cat's previous empirical experiencee in the world? This: ... a tacit certainty that's an unconscious judgment we've made on automatic pilot drawing on long-established empirical reliabilities and logical inferences. ... covers the cat's certainty/uncertainty. Again, and why not? Whether we drive on the left or thr right of the road is arbitray, but it matters all the same. Indeed it matters. That's why your certainty about which side of the road people drive on in the country you are driving in might better be based on empirical evidence and/or logical reasoning rather than on an arbitrary flip of the coin. Arbitrary choices about how to get along in the physical world will get you a lot of empirical experience in the ER--if they can find enough of what's left of you to bother trying to salvage.
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

ade90212
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Posted 08/15/09 - 02:14 PM:	#57
brainpharte wrote: ...a tacit certainty that's an unconscious judgment we've made on automatic pilot drawing on long-established empirical reliabilities and logical inferences. And what is an 'unconscious judgement' meant to be? A judgement without the consciousness? How can one even be said to judge in such circumstances? Surely this is just a reaction. It is just what we do. Are you really saying that the cat weighs up the intergity of the surface? That it thinks about it? Why can't it just react, in the same way that one's knee reacts when struck with a reflex hammer?
"Philosophers often behave like little children who scribble some marks on a piece of paper at random and then ask the grown-up "What's that?" - It happened like this: the grown-up had drawn pictures for the child several times and said: "this is a man", "this is a house", etc. And then the child makes some marks too and asks: what's this then?" - Ludwig Wittgenstein, Culture and Value

brainpharte
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Posted 08/15/09 - 05:15 PM:	#58
ade90212 wrote: And what is an 'unconscious judgement' meant to be? A judgement without the consciousness? How can one even be said to judge in such circumstances? Surely this is just a reaction. It is just what we do. Are you really saying that the cat weighs up the intergity of the surface? That it thinks about it? Why can't it just react, in the same way that one's knee reacts when struck with a reflex hammer? There is a great deal of evidence from cognitive sciences that our brains process info from our senses continuously and that only some of this processing ever emerges into consciousness. The kinds of "judgments" at issue here are little more than comparisons of present sensation/perception with past experience, and yes, these judgments or comparisons can result in "reactions." Such comparisons are known to occur unconsciously on a continual basis. When the present sensation/perception is too different from expected ones based on past experience, then the brain typically would arouse conscious attention to the matter. And either humans or cats might then test or mpore carefully explore the next step before committing to it.
"I don't see much sense in that," said Rabbit. "No," said Pooh humbly, "there isn't. But there was going to be when I began it. It's just that something happened to it along the way."

ragus
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Posted 08/15/09 - 10:31 PM:	#59
ade90212 wrote A judgement without the consciousness? How can one even be said to judge in such circumstances? Surely this is just a reaction. There can be comparisons made without consciousness - computers do it all the time. An action that occurs can be an outcome of the comparison. Maybe the word judgement should be reserved for comparisons made consciously to avoid confusion.
"A word in your ear is like an untethered goat in a field" Wittigenstein

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Posted 08/17/09 - 01:05 PM:	#60
Does going to visit your uncle in prison and never entering the prison constitute visiting your uncle? In some ways humanity has still never been to the moon. Then there is statements like these: If we are thinking within our system, then it is certain that no one has ever been on the moon. "How did he overcome the force of gravity?" "How could he live without an atmosphere?" and a thousand others which could not be answered. We brought the atmosphere with us.... there is an answer for ya. Then again, how do you do that exactly? PPS: A recent article I read in the last two months state that humanity is currently on mars. You see the robots? Because the products of society are there, we then become certain that humanity has been to mars. Edited by Cadrache on 08/17/09 - 01:24 PM. Reason: notation of mars robots added.
"...There was a writer who asked why it was that when we find positive experiences we say that only the physical facts are real, but in negative experiences we believe that reality is subjective. He made an example of those who say that in birth only the pain is real, the joy a subjective point of view, but that in death it is the emotional loss that is the reality." - Tony Ballantyne, Recursion. _____________________________________________ Truth is want. - The internal state of matters. Truth is Need. - The external state of affairs.

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