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The Reluctant Theist
Here is a description of a hypothetical man in need of psychological evaluation.

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The Reluctant Theist

nelvan
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Posted 08/06/09 - 08:22 AM: Subject: The Reluctant Theist	#1
Imagine a young illiterate man from a third world country who suffers from abject poverty and a cripple at that. He has no family, no home and on certain unfortunate days, nothing to eat. His great desire is to commit suicide to end his misery. He thinks of it daily. There is only one thing preventing him from doing so: his belief in God. He knows that suicide is the greatest of sins and he can not offend God. He wishes he were an atheist and has tried to reason his way out of belief in God, but no matter how much he tries, he can't stop believing in God, not for a minute. He cares not for morals; he lies and steals and will even beat a man to death for money. He doesn't go to church, loathes it actually, hates the clergy, etc. And as for the afterlife, he would rather not exist at all than have to wait and suffer for years before attaining paradise. And sometimes he even hates God before disbelieving in Him. My questions to the readers: is this sort of person possible? If so, is there a psychological reason? Can a theist be so reluctant to be a theist? Is it possible to will oneself to atheism overnight? Any other comments not addressed in the questions provided?

yasseford
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Posted 08/06/09 - 08:58 AM:	#2
If he is so immoral, why should he care if suicide offends God?
Yasseford

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1 of 1 people found this post helpful Posted 08/06/09 - 09:58 AM:	#3
yasseford wrote: If he is so immoral, why should he care if suicide offends God? There are actions that deal with peer relations, and then actions that involve more of a divine connection. Having hatred towards God is completely normal. This God is so sure he is perfect, but we are getting raped down here. It is really hard to understand, so anger bubbles up. Belief in God often arises out of a desperate situation. These people are actually 'doing the right thing' even though they are not the typical religious people.
I once was a little Irish man. Drinking from a little tin can. I chewed on a cat; patched up my hat. This is the way of the Holy man.

Phaedruswax
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Posted 08/06/09 - 11:05 AM:	#4
nelvan wrote: Imagine a young illiterate man from a third world country who suffers from abject poverty and a cripple at that. He has no family, no home and on certain unfortunate days, nothing to eat. His great desire is to commit suicide to end his misery. He thinks of it daily. There is only one thing preventing him from doing so: his belief in God. He knows that suicide is the greatest of sins and he can not offend God. He wishes he were an atheist and has tried to reason his way out of belief in God, but no matter how much he tries, he can't stop believing in God, not for a minute. He cares not for morals; he lies and steals and will even beat a man to death for money. He doesn't go to church, loathes it actually, hates the clergy, etc. And as for the afterlife, he would rather not exist at all than have to wait and suffer for years before attaining paradise. And sometimes he even hates God before disbelieving in Him. My questions to the readers: is this sort of person possible? If so, is there a psychological reason? Can a theist be so reluctant to be a theist? Is it possible to will oneself to atheism overnight? Any other comments not addressed in the questions provided? I do think that sort of person is possible. I think the psychological reason is lack of understanding. Yes a theist can reluctantly believe in God. I willed myself to atheism overnight. Wasn't difficult after I understood that what produced good feelings were practices and not beliefs. I discovered that I didn't need to believe in God to benefit from "spiritual" endeavors. I put spiritual in quotes for I believe spirits are metaphysically impossible, and instead consider mind. Through re-evaluation of circumstances I think the man you speak of can be freed.

YY
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Posted 08/06/09 - 01:57 PM:	#5
Hallo. Can you ask the question with out useing the hypothetical example. Such a person is highly unlikely. What exactly is the issue at hand?
"They lied to you the Devil is not the prince of matter, the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, fait with-out a smile..." Eco

nelvan
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Posted 08/06/09 - 09:42 PM:	#6
YY, the issue at hand is whether a person is a theist or atheist simply because he believes in what he or she believes without motive. For example, if A asked B, "Do you believe in ghosts?" and B answered, "Yes" and when pressed why, B answered, "I don't know, I just do. No reason." Of course the hypothetical I gave is more complicated since the theist in question does not want to believe in God in order to commit suicide. So he has a motive not to believe in God but can't stop believing in God for whatever reason. But I am not interested in the reason for the belief in God, whether it is logical or not, but whether a person can keep believing when there is no benefit or motivation in doing so but the contrary. If no, why? If yes, why? I wanted to keep my hypothetical ambiguous in order to have unbiased opinions but I fear some may be suspicious of my motives. But I didn't post the topic in order to debate or make a point, only to know people's thoughts, which I thank the previous participants for sharing.

swstephe
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Posted 08/06/09 - 11:34 PM:	#7
Wouldn't the devil, (pretending he exists), necessarily be a theist? Then you get the many schools of occultism and gnosticism which accepts the existence of a deity and simultaneously rejects this fact. I think it was invoked poetically for a long time. Some older literature, (Dante, for example), has such characters, or people who want to be immortal, (and avoid suicide), rather than face their fate. Then there is gothic literature as well, (although much of it was a cover for talking about sex). Try asking a theist if they believe in the devil -- if they say "yes", it doesn't mean they are devil-worshippers. Why should it be different for a deity.
Ethics is the measuring of morality. Morality is the measuring of good. Good is the measuring of benefit. Benefit is the measure of values.

YY
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Posted 08/07/09 - 01:25 AM:	#8
nelvan Thank you. I get you now.. this is an interesting question. I can't remember ever considering the idea that motivation would be the stimilation for believe. I would say that one can equate believe derived from motivation to delusion (ilusion). For example: The believe that there is an oasis ahead (when there is nothing)is achieved by the motivation for water. This being an ilusion. Applying this to the non-believe in God.. well I would say that one would need motivation for a very strong cause inorder to be so delusional as to not believe in God
"They lied to you the Devil is not the prince of matter, the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, fait with-out a smile..." Eco

nelvan
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Posted 08/07/09 - 08:47 AM:	#9
swstephe, yes, the devil certainly is a theist. The difference is the devil wants to take God's place and establish his own Kingdom and enslave souls (I suppose). The difference is the hypothetical man mentioned doesn't want to be God but this may be because he knows he can't be God. He feels he is powerless to change anything and wants to die. The devil, on the other hand, is a motivated being and does not want to die. But maybe the hypothetical man secretly wants to be Godlike and change his present condition and in that way, he is similar to the devil. I hadn't thought of that. It reminds me of when Jesus reveals to Peter that he will be executed. Peter protests prompting Jesus to say, "Get away from me Satan." It sounds like an extreme thing to say until one sees clearly what the devil's motivation is, which is to change events or conditions against the will of God. YY, yes, you are right about delusion sometimes deriving from motivation as in your example of the oasis. I didn't think of that. That is why faith is not derivative of motivation or desire as in the case of Abraham commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac. Thanks for the insights.

YY
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Posted 08/07/09 - 11:24 AM:	#10
"That is why faith is not derivative of motivation or desire as in the case of Abraham commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac." I agree with the first part. I don't understand the second part. "...in the case of Abraham commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac." ??
"They lied to you the Devil is not the prince of matter, the Devil is the arrogance of the spirit, fait with-out a smile..." Eco

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